Now I really have more appreciation for my Lian Li 60BPLUSII. They really need an interpreter for their almost non-existent manuals though. Noobs are always complaining about lack of documentation on Newegg. Are Lian Li cases the best? Maybe for the all-aluminum category, but they have their drawbacks like any case manufacturer. I sure like mine though.
PS. Not all American workers are fat. I'm a prime example. LOL
Over the years i 've 3-40 Lian Li cases,
its well worth it. their product is so thought out that it can accomadate.arm's length GPU cards way before you even see other competitor on the market. Not to mention less guady, easy on the eyes if you have to look at your pc year round.
Lianli just need to use quieter fans, and stop following the guady trends of obnoxious color (flamboyant red) like the others. Nobody has made a better modular case than LianLi, not even ogre looking Silverstone.
Any chance you could inquire about working conditions for your next stop? Performance data is easy to get by, knowing how well employees are treated and paid isn't. I could sure use some informed opinion on the matter to help me choose what I buy.
Last time I checked, Anandtech wasn't a humanitarian reporting agency. They supply tech news. If you are so concerned with working conditions in China, write to the BBC or your local congress.
I can tell you this much, they are worked to death and paid absolute minimum. They probably support large families on their small pay. They mostly eat rice because it is cheap to buy and can feed the entire family. Any meats they get are a blessing most of the time. I know people that have lived and worked in a production environment in China and it isn't nice. These fat, lazy, overpaid American workers should consider themselves lucky to have what they do. They have no clue...
Hey, I'm not... well, I don't... I mean, I'm not... hmmm, ok, I give I am... But is being a fat, lazy, overpaid american worker such a bad thing? I try not to take it for granted and I try to appreciate everything I have, but your view is shaped by the people around you... and if you can't afford to travel and are surrounded by other fat, lazy, overpaid, american workers, it can be hard to keep a balanced view relative to the the state or country you live it, much less the world...
1. Taiwan is not China. Although the official country name is "Republic of China" (compared to China's "People's Republic of China"), and inside Taiwan there was a lot of debates regarding relations with China, the current Chinese government (the one in China) has no sovereignty over Taiwan.
2. Taiwan is essentially a developed country. GDP per capita, based on CIA, is $33000. Its foreign reserve is among the largest in the world, despite its relative small geographic and demographic size.
3. Taiwan is a fully democratized country and labor laws are fairly up to the world's modern standards. In fact, for a company like Lian Li to stay in Taiwan instead of moving factories to China, it has to withstand quite a bit of financial pressure because the labor cost is way lower (in some instances, only 1/10 of Taiwan). Taiwan's government provides universal healthcare, and additional labor insurance provides pension plan (similar to Social Security but much more robust).
Last time I checked, Taiwan was not China. While the working conditions in Taiwan are not up to the standards we've set in North America, I'm sure they are better than what you'd see in China. There's a reason "Made in China" is synonymous for cheap labour.
Wow ComputerGuyPerson, way to have one of the most clueless series of posts I've ever seen. Apparently we all missed the shooting war where mainland China invaded and took over Taiwan.
In other news, according to ComputerGuyPerson Great Britain governs the U.S. and Nazi Germany governs France.
"Under its One-China policy, the PRC requires other countries to give no official recognition to the ROC as a condition of maintaining diplomatic relations. As a result, there are only 23 states that have official diplomatic relations with the Republic of China. However, most countries have unofficial representative offices in the ROC."
Your retarded, you couldn't even fly between Taiwan and China until recently and it was that way even though Taiwan has millions of employees in China. That Taiwan was pushed out of the UN doesn't make it a part of China. It's still its own country, self governed with it's own military. It's sovereign.
Read the whole wikipedia article again and you'll, hopefully, understand that Taiwan (ROC) is not governed by China (PRC). Countries which have a large population of ethnic Chinese are not necessarily part of China; Singapore is a notable example. I am surprised you cannot even interpret correctly your own cited source. Based on your logic, companies which hire ethnic Chinese Americans are Chinese companies. Good news to Yahoo! and nVidia (and Intel, Microsoft, Oracle, Cisco, etc.) that you don't need to pay Uncle Sam taxes now!
Lian Li makes stuff in Taiwan. That is all the "informed opinion" I need regarding working conditions. I speak from experience visiting production facilities in Taiwan, Korea, Hong Kong, China and Singapore.
Working conditions in Taiwan are the product of a highly competitive business climate, tempered by the imminent threat of factory closure due to the poor economy. You could visit twenty different small electronics production facilities in Taiwan and be unable to distinguish one from another if the names weren't on the wall. Working conditions in Taiwan are dictated by the well-educated (but massive) population...meager but efficient.
Lian Li is to be commended for keeping production in Taiwan.
There are a million provincial migrant workers in mainland Guang Dong province alone that would love to have any job in Taiwan.
Taiwan rivals Japan, the US and Western Europe for income and productivity. Unlike Europe and the US (but like Japan), there few underclasses in the population that can be exploited (think "illegal immigrants"). If working conditions in a particular company aren't satisfactory, the workers can vote with their feet. There is usually another factory within a quarter mile walk. No laws or practices bind a worker to company.
Also, there is almost zero chance a visiting journalist is going to find out the "pay" of workers, not that it matters. The pay for any specific factory in Taiwan is very similar to the rates paid by the surrounding production facilities. It can't be any other way.
Facilities in China and Taiwan look almost exactly the same, and workers tend to be treated the same. Management positions get swapped often, which probably explains it. Only difference is Taiwanese pay is higher. Everything else, the same. Perhaps that's just telling of the quality of China, though.
I think it's appropriate to say that all manufacturing plants/factories throughout the world are similar, in terms of quality-control standard or general treatment to employees, as long as good management is in place. While products from China recently have bad reputation due to many incidents, still there are certainly many good factories which treat their workers well. On the other hand, I am not so sure how to make sense of the statement that factories in Taiwan and China are about the same as there is still cultural difference, some fairly significant, beyond the people's facial feature similarity. However, the lack of democracy in China means there is a lot of leeway for the government (and very often, the domestic/foreign companies who work with the government) to ignore individual's rights.
It's interesting where two lines of comment will take a thread. There's no doubt some of the best cases in the world come from that very facility. I'm glad my original comment made people pause for a moment. We rarely stop to think about what goes into making a product, be it the sweat, the labor, the engineering, or the blood wiped clean. Did you have a good look at those sheet metal cutting & forming machines? Devoid of workers? Think anyone's lost a finger in that room?
I make it sound dramatic, but I'll tell you, those pictures spoke a thousand words. We saw a carefully laid out tour and while we debate geography, the author still remembers the feeling of touring that facility. Those people are busting their ass; when you stop to examine the snapshots of their reality, that becomes all more apparent. I suddenly have a greater appreciation of this case sitting beside me..
For the whole discussion here, I think it is also important to know that not all "third-world" countries (anywhere other than "1st" or "2nd" world) are necessarily poor ones with substandard working environment. It is very condescending to think that way, from an American's point of view (assuming most readership here is from US), and plainly stupid to do so. Many of these countries (Taiwan, South Korea, to name a few) have modern infrastructures that many places in US still lack. A notable example is cell phone network. Nowadays all major US networks are touting 3G; 3G has been prevalent in many Asian countries for years. Most of the phones we are using from the networks are like 2 generations behind.
They were working, and I don't think they were asked by the journalist to pose/smile for the photos. The recent economic downturn hits the country hard and I am sure that puts burden on everyone's mind too. Besides, do you really smile when you need to concentrate on work, unless your work requires you to smile all the time and prepared for photos? Even though I love my work I don't really smile especially when focusing on something.
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25 Comments
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Webster4 - Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - link
Now I really have more appreciation for my Lian Li 60BPLUSII. They really need an interpreter for their almost non-existent manuals though. Noobs are always complaining about lack of documentation on Newegg. Are Lian Li cases the best? Maybe for the all-aluminum category, but they have their drawbacks like any case manufacturer. I sure like mine though.PS. Not all American workers are fat. I'm a prime example. LOL
anandtech02148 - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
Over the years i 've 3-40 Lian Li cases,its well worth it. their product is so thought out that it can accomadate.arm's length GPU cards way before you even see other competitor on the market. Not to mention less guady, easy on the eyes if you have to look at your pc year round.
Lianli just need to use quieter fans, and stop following the guady trends of obnoxious color (flamboyant red) like the others. Nobody has made a better modular case than LianLi, not even ogre looking Silverstone.
Jaramin - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
Any chance you could inquire about working conditions for your next stop? Performance data is easy to get by, knowing how well employees are treated and paid isn't. I could sure use some informed opinion on the matter to help me choose what I buy.ComputerGuyPerson - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
Last time I checked, Anandtech wasn't a humanitarian reporting agency. They supply tech news. If you are so concerned with working conditions in China, write to the BBC or your local congress.I can tell you this much, they are worked to death and paid absolute minimum. They probably support large families on their small pay. They mostly eat rice because it is cheap to buy and can feed the entire family. Any meats they get are a blessing most of the time. I know people that have lived and worked in a production environment in China and it isn't nice. These fat, lazy, overpaid American workers should consider themselves lucky to have what they do. They have no clue...
Deadtrees - Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - link
Wow, your ignorance is amazing.I've seen people thinking North Korea=South Korea. Someone like you had to go further to claim Twiwan=China.
yyrkoon - Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - link
"These fat, lazy, overpaid American workers should consider themselves lucky to have what they do."Way to go 'Shakespeare' , but at least you make those of us who normally may wonder what kind of people we are in life feel better about ourselves.
TechDicky - Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - link
"These fat, lazy, overpaid American workers..."Hey, I'm not... well, I don't... I mean, I'm not... hmmm, ok, I give I am... But is being a fat, lazy, overpaid american worker such a bad thing? I try not to take it for granted and I try to appreciate everything I have, but your view is shaped by the people around you... and if you can't afford to travel and are surrounded by other fat, lazy, overpaid, american workers, it can be hard to keep a balanced view relative to the the state or country you live it, much less the world...
:D
Davdoc - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
Go back to world geography class, or at least at this day and age, check some reliable online resources (like CIA World Factbook about Taiwan: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world...">https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world... before giving out biased opinions.Facts:
1. Taiwan is not China. Although the official country name is "Republic of China" (compared to China's "People's Republic of China"), and inside Taiwan there was a lot of debates regarding relations with China, the current Chinese government (the one in China) has no sovereignty over Taiwan.
2. Taiwan is essentially a developed country. GDP per capita, based on CIA, is $33000. Its foreign reserve is among the largest in the world, despite its relative small geographic and demographic size.
3. Taiwan is a fully democratized country and labor laws are fairly up to the world's modern standards. In fact, for a company like Lian Li to stay in Taiwan instead of moving factories to China, it has to withstand quite a bit of financial pressure because the labor cost is way lower (in some instances, only 1/10 of Taiwan). Taiwan's government provides universal healthcare, and additional labor insurance provides pension plan (similar to Social Security but much more robust).
chewmanji - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
Last time I checked, Taiwan was not China. While the working conditions in Taiwan are not up to the standards we've set in North America, I'm sure they are better than what you'd see in China. There's a reason "Made in China" is synonymous for cheap labour.ComputerGuyPerson - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
You're right, it isn't China... it's just the Republic of China... governed by China...with... Chinese workers...Idiot.
Sunrise089 - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
Wow ComputerGuyPerson, way to have one of the most clueless series of posts I've ever seen. Apparently we all missed the shooting war where mainland China invaded and took over Taiwan.In other news, according to ComputerGuyPerson Great Britain governs the U.S. and Nazi Germany governs France.
puffpio - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
uhh..Taiwan isnt governed by China, they are their own country. And working conditions for manufacturing in Taiwan are better than in ChinaComputerGuyPerson - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
"Under its One-China policy, the PRC requires other countries to give no official recognition to the ROC as a condition of maintaining diplomatic relations. As a result, there are only 23 states that have official diplomatic relations with the Republic of China. However, most countries have unofficial representative offices in the ROC."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China
Penti - Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - link
Your retarded, you couldn't even fly between Taiwan and China until recently and it was that way even though Taiwan has millions of employees in China. That Taiwan was pushed out of the UN doesn't make it a part of China. It's still its own country, self governed with it's own military. It's sovereign.MamiyaOtaru - Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - link
Troll, or retard?Davdoc - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
Read the whole wikipedia article again and you'll, hopefully, understand that Taiwan (ROC) is not governed by China (PRC). Countries which have a large population of ethnic Chinese are not necessarily part of China; Singapore is a notable example. I am surprised you cannot even interpret correctly your own cited source. Based on your logic, companies which hire ethnic Chinese Americans are Chinese companies. Good news to Yahoo! and nVidia (and Intel, Microsoft, Oracle, Cisco, etc.) that you don't need to pay Uncle Sam taxes now!fpink3 - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
Lian Li makes stuff in Taiwan. That is all the "informed opinion" I need regarding working conditions. I speak from experience visiting production facilities in Taiwan, Korea, Hong Kong, China and Singapore.Working conditions in Taiwan are the product of a highly competitive business climate, tempered by the imminent threat of factory closure due to the poor economy. You could visit twenty different small electronics production facilities in Taiwan and be unable to distinguish one from another if the names weren't on the wall. Working conditions in Taiwan are dictated by the well-educated (but massive) population...meager but efficient.
Lian Li is to be commended for keeping production in Taiwan.
There are a million provincial migrant workers in mainland Guang Dong province alone that would love to have any job in Taiwan.
Taiwan rivals Japan, the US and Western Europe for income and productivity. Unlike Europe and the US (but like Japan), there few underclasses in the population that can be exploited (think "illegal immigrants"). If working conditions in a particular company aren't satisfactory, the workers can vote with their feet. There is usually another factory within a quarter mile walk. No laws or practices bind a worker to company.
Also, there is almost zero chance a visiting journalist is going to find out the "pay" of workers, not that it matters. The pay for any specific factory in Taiwan is very similar to the rates paid by the surrounding production facilities. It can't be any other way.
daar - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
Facilities in China and Taiwan look almost exactly the same, and workers tend to be treated the same. Management positions get swapped often, which probably explains it. Only difference is Taiwanese pay is higher. Everything else, the same. Perhaps that's just telling of the quality of China, though.Davdoc - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
I think it's appropriate to say that all manufacturing plants/factories throughout the world are similar, in terms of quality-control standard or general treatment to employees, as long as good management is in place. While products from China recently have bad reputation due to many incidents, still there are certainly many good factories which treat their workers well. On the other hand, I am not so sure how to make sense of the statement that factories in Taiwan and China are about the same as there is still cultural difference, some fairly significant, beyond the people's facial feature similarity. However, the lack of democracy in China means there is a lot of leeway for the government (and very often, the domestic/foreign companies who work with the government) to ignore individual's rights.Hauk - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
No one cracked even the slightest smile for the camera. They look, uncertain, but productive...Hauk - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
It's interesting where two lines of comment will take a thread. There's no doubt some of the best cases in the world come from that very facility. I'm glad my original comment made people pause for a moment. We rarely stop to think about what goes into making a product, be it the sweat, the labor, the engineering, or the blood wiped clean. Did you have a good look at those sheet metal cutting & forming machines? Devoid of workers? Think anyone's lost a finger in that room?I make it sound dramatic, but I'll tell you, those pictures spoke a thousand words. We saw a carefully laid out tour and while we debate geography, the author still remembers the feeling of touring that facility. Those people are busting their ass; when you stop to examine the snapshots of their reality, that becomes all more apparent. I suddenly have a greater appreciation of this case sitting beside me..
Davdoc - Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - link
For the whole discussion here, I think it is also important to know that not all "third-world" countries (anywhere other than "1st" or "2nd" world) are necessarily poor ones with substandard working environment. It is very condescending to think that way, from an American's point of view (assuming most readership here is from US), and plainly stupid to do so. Many of these countries (Taiwan, South Korea, to name a few) have modern infrastructures that many places in US still lack. A notable example is cell phone network. Nowadays all major US networks are touting 3G; 3G has been prevalent in many Asian countries for years. Most of the phones we are using from the networks are like 2 generations behind.Davdoc - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
They were working, and I don't think they were asked by the journalist to pose/smile for the photos. The recent economic downturn hits the country hard and I am sure that puts burden on everyone's mind too. Besides, do you really smile when you need to concentrate on work, unless your work requires you to smile all the time and prepared for photos? Even though I love my work I don't really smile especially when focusing on something.ComputerGuyPerson - Monday, January 26, 2009 - link
Well, what do you expect? It's in China. They work for meager wages, barely getting by. I am sure they aren't happy to make your cases.Penti - Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - link
It's in Taiwan not PRC.Taiwan got a GDP per capita PPP at $30,000 USD, higher then Israel.